[Comp.Sci.Dept, Utrecht] Note from archiver<at>cs.uu.nl: This page is part of a big collection of Usenet postings, archived here for your convenience. For matters concerning the content of this page, please contact its author(s); use the source, if all else fails. For matters concerning the archive as a whole, please refer to the archive description or contact the archiver.

Subject: [alt.games.nomic] Frequently Asked Questions about Nomic

This article was archived around: 16 Oct 1999 18:10:02 -0000

All FAQs in Directory: games
All FAQs posted in: alt.games.nomic, rec.games.abstract
Source: Usenet Version

Posted-By: auto-faq 3.3 (Perl 5.004) Archive-name: games/nomic-faq Posting-Frequency: posted on the 17th of each month
The Nomic Frequently Asked Questions List Contents: 1. Where can I get this FAQ? 2. What is Nomic? 3. Is it "Nommic" or "Nome-ic"? 4. Where can I get the rules? 5. What is alt.games.nomic? 6. Is Nomic being played on the Net? Where? 7. What is this talk of Internomic? 8. What is/was Nomic World? Where is it now? 9. What other Nomic-like games are there? 10. Nomic related pages on the Web. 11. Books and references. 12. Acknowledgements. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Where can I get this FAQ? This FAQ is now posted monthly to alt.games.nomic, rec.games.abstract and alt.answers. An HTML version exists at: http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~malcolmr/nomic/FAQ.html and is mirrored by Doug Chatham at: http://web.utk.edu/~chatham/nomicfaq.html A text only version can be FTP'ed from: ftp://ftp.cse.unsw.edu.au/pub/users/malcolmr/nomic/FAQ.txt or from: ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/faqs/games/nomic-faq ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2. What is Nomic? Asking the question "What is Nomic?" is like asking the question "What is a hacker?" or "What is Zen?" - people tend to get all mystical and cryptic, and you end up with no real idea at all. :) Nomic is a game, and it is a lot of FUN! Unlike most games, the rules of nomic are not written in stone. In fact, the object of the game is to make changes to the rules of the game. Players start off following some "initial rule-set", which dictates how the rules can be changed. Once a rule change has been made, players then follow this new rule set. Most importantly, the rules about how rule changes are made can themselves be changed! This is where it tends to get mystical, because as a result of these rule changes, the game you are playing will change from moment to moment. The nature of the rule changing mechanism might change from democratic to capitalist, to totalitarian, to whatever. Or the ability to change the rules might be removed entirely - perhaps the game will turn into chess, or tag, or snap. The future of the game is entirely in the hands of the players. In the words of Nomic's author: Nomic is a game in which changing the rules is a move. In that respect it differs from almost every other game. The primary activity of Nomic is proposing changes in the rules, debating the wisdom of changing them in that way, voting on the changes, deciding what can and cannot be done afterwards, and doing it. Even this core of the game, of course, can be changed. --Peter Suber, How to Play Nomic Most nomic enthusiasts seem to enjoy playing nomic in order to experience the possibilities of different kinds of lawmaking processes, and also to exercise their ingenuity in trying to discover loopholes in the rules which give unusual results - mostly to the benefit of the player. (This is called "scamming", and is lots of fun! :) In my commentary on the game I distinguish 'procedural' from 'substantive' games. In substantive games, players play to earn points and win. In procedural games, they try to tie the rules into knots, either for the logical fun of it or in order to win by paradox rather than by points. -- Peter Suber For the record, Nomic was conceived and designed by Peter Suber, and first published in Douglas Hofstadter's column "Metamagical Themas" in Scientific American in 1982, and later in Hofstadter's book, by the same name. Peter revised the rules and published them in his own book, "The Paradox of Self Amendment" in 1990. See section 11 below, for references. NOTE: The section on Nomic from the Paradox of Self Amendment is now online. Take a look at Peter Suber's Nomic web page at: http://www.earlham.edu/suber/nomic.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3. Is it "Nomm-ic" or "Nome-ic"? Debate rages over whether the "o" in "Nomic" is long or short. The short "o" seems to have been the inspiration of such online games as "EcoNomic" and "AutoNomic", but the long "o" persists in such games as "Garden Nomic". (Think about it.) I put this question to Dr Suber himself. I quote his response in full: I followed the discussion with interest over the weekend and decided not to intervene. I didn't want to contradict half the Nomic world. But since you ask, I've always used a long "o". To me both pronunciations are perfectly acceptable. The Greek "o" is short (omicron, not omega), and in English it is short in words like "astronomic", "autonomic", and "economic". So I see a case to be made on that side. But I like the sound of the long "o" better. I analogize "nomic" in "astronomic" to "wise" in "wisdom": the root word may take a long vowel when standing alone, but it becomes short when it joins a compound. There are many other examples in English, both when the original long vowel becomes part of a stressed syllable (as in wise --> wisdom, break --> breakfast) and when it becomes part of an unstressed syllable (as in able --> ability, fate --> fatality). By the way, I discuss the phonetic rules above in more detail at http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/writing/freiburg.htm. -- Peter Suber So it is plain that even the author of the game doesn't pronounce its name correctly, since everyone know that it is "Nomm-ic". :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4. Where can I get the rules? Peter Suber's original rules set is available on the Web at: http://www.earlham.edu/suber/writing/nomic.htm#initial set They can also be FTP'ed from ftp://ftp.cse.unsw.edu.au/pub/users/malcolmr/nomic/ in plain text, postscript and acrobat formats. They have also been published in several books, which are listed in section 11 below. The original ruleset has also been translated into several other languages. Copies in Spanish, Swedish and French are available from the Nomic FTP Repository (see Section 10 below). Thanks to the people who have sent me these. If anyone has any other translations, please let me know. See Section 6 for more Nomic variants. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5. What is alt.games.nomic? Alt.games.nomic (a.g.n) is is newsgroup dedicated to the discussion of Nomic and related games. In particular, it is proposed as a discussion area for interaction between existing Email Nomic games (See Q5 and 6, below). Alt.games.nomic is suffering from poor propagation. Please encourage your newsadmin to carry it. If you can't get this group, Nomic discussion also takes place in rec.games.abstract or alt.fan.hofstadter, and most of the a.g.n readers lurk in these groups too. Alternatively, you can use Doug Chatham's Nomic Bulletin Board at: http://web.utk.edu/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/chatham/nbb.pl There also exists a newsgroup alt.games.nomic.unomic, for the purpose of playing and discussing Usenet Nomic (see Q5 below). A.g.n.u has even worse propagation than a.g.n. (i.e. almost non-existent) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6. Is Nomic being played on the Net? Where? Net nomic games have proliferated in the last few years, and new ones seem to keep on popping up. This FAQ used to contain a list of online Nomics, but I found that it was too much work too keep it up to date. Instead, I have implemented the Net Nomic Database web-site, which allows nomics to add their own entries and update them as they see fit. The URL is: http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~malcolmr/nomic. The NND is still in its early stages, and is not very pretty just yet, but it seems to function okay. Please feel free to add your own Nomics to the list. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7. What is this talk of Internomic? With the recent proliferation of Nomic games online, some people have begun talking about starting a game of "Internomic" - that is, a game of Nomic in which each of the existing games act as "players". The idea is loosely based around the mapping of nomic games to nations in the real world. So Internomic would make some provisions for trade and negotiation between "nations", somewhat like the UN. Such a game has been going for some time now. Check the InterNomic entry in the Net Nomic Database for up-to-date information. For another perspective on meta-Nomic activity, take a look at The United Nomics web page: http://www.cbu.edu/~jorendor/nomic/un.html The current internomic efforts seem to be dedicated to peaceful relations between nomics. Those interested in conducting a Nomic War may be interested in using Doug Chatham's draft Internet Convention for the Conduct of Nomic War, which can be found on the Nomic FTP Repository. (See Section 10 below.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8. What is/was Nomic World? Where is it now? Nomic World was a MUD (Multi-User Dungeon) run by Geoff Wong and Steve Gardner at Monash University, in Australia. Its sole purpose was to run an extended game of Nomic. In its heyday, NW had over thirty players, from places all around the world, making it the largest (known) game of Nomic in the world! Nomic world lasted for about 9 months, before the wizards were forced to shut it down due to system problems and lack of time to administer it. In that time, several hundred rules were made, and multiple scams pulled off (with various degrees of success.) To find out more about Nomic World, read Steve Gardner's excellent game summaries, available from the Nomic ftp site: ftp://ftp.cse.unsw.edu.au/pub/users/malcolmr/nomic/articles/summaries.txt I consulted the 'framers' of this game and suggested an innovation to the initial set of rules which (I believe) they adopted. Instead of having players propose rules in serial, they should do so in parallel, and then occasionally vote on some of the accumulated proposals. That would not only permit a much larger number of players to participate, but it would simulate a legislative body better than the original rule set. -- Suber The initial rules from Nomic World are available for FTP from: ftp://ftp.cse.unsw.edu.au/pub/users/malcolmr/nomic/rulesets/nwrules.txt ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9. What other Nomic-like games are there? Here are a number of other games that might appeal to nomickers. I compiled this purely from my own feel of what things Nomic players like. Feel free to disagree with any of my choices. If there are any games you feel I have left out, please tell me. * Bartok/Bartog/Warthog A card game, which begins very much like Uno, except that each time a player wins a round, e gets to invent a new rule. Generally, new rules are restricted by the players' sense of fairness, and meta-rules are not allowed. The game is complicated by the initial rule that "If a player asks a question, e must pick up a card." This game is meant to be very silly, and can be lots of fun. I have put the a file containing the initial rules, and some suggested extras which I have played successfully in the past, up for ftp at ftp://ftp.cse.unsw.edu.au/pub/users/malcolmr/nomic/other_games/bartog.txt Other web pages dedicated to Bartok are: o http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~mar/bartok.html [Research is currently underway as to the origin of this game, and the true spelling of its name. Any info would be appreciated. - MALCOLM] * Mao Mao is similar to Barto[gk] but with the following important variations: 1) New players are not told the initial rule set (which is slightly different from the Bartok one, and varies slightly (radically?) depending on which group is playing it) 2) When someone goes out, they invent a new rule, which they do not tell the other players. Mao related web pages: o http://www.atmos.washington.edu/~bajuk/mao.html o http://www.geocities.com/Paris/2157/mao.html o http://watserv1.uwaterloo.ca/~uwbc/card_games/mao.html * Eleusis In Eleusis, like the above games, players try to get rid of their cards by playing them onto a discard pile, however the rule which dictates which cards are legal to play is not known to the players. Instead, it is invented by the dealer before play begins. The other players have to try and guess the rule by observing which plays are legal. The original version of Eleusis was invented by Robert Abbott in 1956, and was published in Martin Gardner's column in the Scientific American in June 1959. It subsequently appeared in Gardner's 2nd Scientific American Book of Mathematical Puzzles and Diversions and in Robert Abbott's book Abbott's New Card Games (Stein & Day 1963). In the 1970's Robbert Abbott made some major improvements to Eleusis, including the option for a player to become a prophet and try to predict whether each play would be called legal or illegal. This current version The New Eleusis was published in the Scientific American in October 1977. There is also a booklet about it, obtainable from the inventor, which gives a fascinating account of the development of the game, as well as the rules. David Matuszek maintains a web page for The New Eleusis at: http://www.netaxs.com/people/nerp/eleusis0.html I have archived some of Dave's pages on eleusis in the Nomic FTP Repository: ftp://ftp.cse.unsw.edu.au/pub/users/malcolmr/nomic/other_games/index.html * Fluxx Fluxx is a commercially produced card game created by Looney Labs (http://www.LooneyLabs.com/). In Fluxx, almost every card you play changes the rules of the game, so things can get quite chaotic. The Fluxx home page is at: http://www.wunderland.com/LooneyLabs/Fluxx/Fluxx.html * Das Regeln Wir Schon Das Regeln Wir Schon (We'll Settle This Yet) is a German game that closely resembles Nomic. Players take turns playing "Rule cards", which contain new rules, and voting on them. The complete set of rules, translated into English can be found at: http://www.gamecabinet.com/rules/DasRegeln.html A review of the game can be found at: http://www.gamereport.com/tgr11/dasregelnwirschon.html * Mediocrity Mediocrity is an amusing little game in which it pays to be mediocre. Invented by Douglas Hofstadter, it was published in Metamagical Themas (see Section 11 below). The rules are available online at http://www.cs.rmit.edu.au/~geoff/mediocrity.html * Playing Politics Michael Laver, Professor of Political Science at Trinity College, Dublin wrote a book called "Playing Politics" which describes a variety of games that would be of interest to Nomic players. His games are designed to teach the forces involved in real-world poltical decision making, but they are also a lot of fun. The publishing details are listed in Section 11 below. Professor Laver's home page is at: http://www.bess.tcd.ie/polsdept/1laver.htm Some of his games can be found online at http://www.cs.rmit.edu.au/~geoff/political.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10. Nomic related pages on the Web. There are a plethora of Nomic pages on the net. Again, there are too many for me to keep track of in this FAQ. Check out Swann's Nomic Ring page at http://www.sff.net/people/saswann/nomic/ring.htm A few sites of general interest are: * Peter Suber's Nomic page: http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/nomic.htm * The Nomic Frequently Asked Questions List (this FAQ): http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~malcolmr/nomic/FAQ.html * The Nomic FTP Repository: ftp://ftp.cse.unsw.edu.au/pub/users/malcolmr/nomic/index.html * The Net Nomic Database: http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~malcolmr/nomic/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11. Books and references. * Title: The Paradox of Self-Amendment, A Study of Logic, Law, Omnipotence, and Change. Author: Peter Suber Publisher: Peter Lang Publishing Date: 1990 ISBN: 0-8204-1212-0 Online version: http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/writing/psa/index.htm Description (by Suber): PSA is the first (so far the only) book-length study of self-reference problems in law. It focusses on one such problem from American constitutional law, but in the discussion of it ranges widely over other problems and other jurisdictions. That one central problem is whether the amendment clause of the constitution can be used to amend itself. Alf Ross, a notable jurist and logician, argued that it cannot. I argue that it can, and show in addition that self-amendment has frequently occurred in fact. In the process of showing the permissibility of self-amendment, I discuss much of the law of the U.S. federal amending process, the theological paradox of omnipotence, the nature of paradox, legal rationality, and legal change. Nomic is Appendix 3 of the book. I can't recommend that every avid Nomic player buy the book, for it costs $70 US. But I can recommend that they persuade their local library to do so! The book would be helpful for anyone who took a serious theoretical interest in the game or in the logic of self-amendment. I can recommend this essay-length synopsis of the main argument of the book: Peter Suber, "The Paradox of Self-Amendment in American Constitutional Law," _Stanford Literature Review_, vol. 7, nos. 1-2 (Spring-Fall 1990) pp. 53-78 (available online at: http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/writing/psaessay.htm) * Title: About Nomic: A Heroic Game That Explores the Reflexivity of the Law Author: Douglas R. Hofstadter Published: Scientific American, 246 (June 1982) pp16-28 Description: An early version of the rules, taken from the unpublished text of "The Paradox of Self-Amendment", with explanation and commentary by Suber about the purpose of the game and the possible directions it could take. * Title: METAMAGICAL THEMAS: Questing for the Essence of Mind and Pattern Author: Douglas R. Hofstadter Publisher: Penguin Books ISBN: 0-14-008534-3 Description: A reprint of the his Scientific American articles, along with some extra discussion and feedback from readers. * Title: Playing politics : the nightmare continues Author: Michael Laver Publisher: Oxford University Press Date: 1997 ISBN: 019285321X Description: Do you like getting your own way, making money, cheating your friends, reneging on your promises? A born politician, you will revel in playing Michael Laver's entertaining games based on the double-dealing of real-life politics. Michael Laver, a leading political scientist, has designed the games to be simple to play and at the same time revealing of the political process. They are ideal for budding politicians, politics students, and all those who enjoy games involving strategy and bargaining. By playing Agenda, Coalitions, and even three-sided soccer, you can fight elections, overthrow governments, and make deals, all in the interests of winning or holding on to power. Whether you are securing public funding to support your particular project or coming out top in the opinion polls, anyone can have fun with the games, and by playing politics get a feel for the fascinating complexity of the real thing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12. Acknowledgements. I'd like to thank the following in helping me to construct this FAQ. Karl Anderson <karl@reed.edu> Don Blaheta <blahedo@quincy.edu> Paul Bolchover <pb10003@phx.cam.ac.uk> Scott de Brestian Chuck Carroll <ccarroll@dfw.net> Doug Chatham <dchatham@utk.edu> David Chapman <chapman@adtaz.sps.mot.com> Joseph DeVincentis <devjoe@wilma.che.utexas.edu> Steve Gardner <gardner@aurora.cc.monash.edu.au> Mitchell Harding <mitcharf@mail.utexas.edu> Ted Helm <enhF94@hamp.hampshire.edu> Peter Hollo <raven@geko.com> Denis Howe <dbh@doc.ic.ac.uk> Oerjan Johansen <oerjan@nvg.unit.no> Ed McGuire <ed@i2.com> Nelson Minar <nelson@santafe.edu> Aneel Nazareth <nazareth@tep.org> Michael Norrish <Michael.Norrish@cl.cam.ac.uk> Clair Pritchett <pritcc@ut.rockymt.net> Jason Reed <jreed@mail.tds.net> Gareth Rees <Gareth.Rees@cl.cam.ac.uk> Garth Rose <roseg@ucs.orst.edu> Peter Suber <peters@earlham.edu> Benjamin Thompson <benjamin@oro.net> Bill Trost <trost@cloud.rain.com> Geoff Wong <geoff@cs.rmit.edu.au> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- This Nomic Ring site is owned by Malcolm Ryan. Want to join the Nomic Ring? [Skip Prev] [Prev] [Next] [Skip Next] [Random] [Next 5] [List Sites] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Malcolm Ryan - malcolmr@cse.unsw.edu.au Last modified: May 26 1999